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how about a net 59

I understand your logic but which pro last won a tournament shooting 19 under par and remember he gets to play the same course everyday and he's a scratch golfer.

You would never let a 12 handicap flight play a course as easy as the one you described, so therfore 19 under is sandbagging.

If he shoots those scores, he wins his flight by 10, unless they're playing par 3's every day.

Granted, he may not be sandbagging for a round or two, but a 12 handicap golfer is rarely that consistent for four days in a row no matter what the courses ratings are.

In order to win a flight,a player has to shoot at least 5 up to 10 under his handicap. This is my observation after analyzing the results of the 8 tournaments I played there. If you shoot your handicap, you are in the top 10 of your flight.
So, the winner will be the guy, who gets hot on at least one round (let's asume 5 under) and plays around his handicap for the rest of the tournament.
We all know, it's tough to do, but it can happen (it did 3 years ago for me and I - and my golfer friends for many years - know that I am not a sandbagger). You just have to be consistent and we all know how difficult this is on 4 consecutive days (at my level - 12 HC)

Also, there are other intangibles you haven't taken into consideration. This is a tournament with tournament pressure and conditions played on courses that the player does not play regularly with strict attention to the rules.

I don not think that Player A was sandbagging at all. If you take par at 72 --on what ever course you like--he would be expected to shoot somewhere in the mid to high 80's if he was a true 12 0r 13. If he even has a good round he would be well under par.

That's why there was not enough information to make the call.

Defitinely a sand bagger! First, a 12 handicap should not be playing a course so easy with a low rating and a very low slope. Secondly, they should only beat their handicap 1 in every 10 rounds. This golfer was net 68 for 3 days and then steps it up and fires a net 65. His net scores should have been around 70-73 and even then he would have been playing well. Thirdly, a 12 handicap will have at least bad round in any tournament; no matter how good he is. Therefore, a sandbagger!

When your question said "assuming par 72 for each round" you left the impression he played the tournement at par 72 courses. You could not assume from the question that you meant his handicap was based on par 72 courses. Isn't everyones handicap index adjusted based on par and slope to a par 72 course?

Not enough info. What did the others in his flight shoot? 18 under, 17 under, 12 under. If so then the course was too easy for this flight. If the others are way off the mark then he is possibly sandbagging. You need to look at the average of the other players in the flight and the course ratings to make a correct determination. Also sometimes on a relatively easy/short course most players would try to get too much off the tee and get into trouble but if one player instead of driver off the tee only hit 2 or 3 iron and stayed in the fairway he could post lower scores due to not getting into trouble and costing strokes. Not enough info!!!

Richard,

Great point, but you are talking about a scratch golfer in relationship to par. As the USGA handicap book tells us, "par isn't a significant factor in the USGA handicap system" and that's why you don't use a person's net under par score to determine how well they did or didn't play.

It's all about their differential and that's what we hoped to begin calling attention to. In the case of our example golfer he played to a 13.4 differential, almost a shot and a half higher than his incoming index, on 3 of the 4 days.

We will be posting a video that goes into greater detail in the near future.

If this guy shot 19 under par and it is steight up than yes he is a big sandbagger. However, if the 19 under is with his handicap of 12 being taken off of the score than no I don't believe you can call him a sandbagger. You did not have enough information to make a determination of the proper scores.

It pays to read the question closely before the survey. Playing a home course with say a slope of 132 like my home club would be apples and oranges. Under the easier playing conditions, no wind as a factor and a consistent player very focused on the prize, a 12 handicap could hit these numbers. I stand corrected.
I'd be hard pressed to find someone at a legitimate 12 who would shoot 80 or under for the 4 straight days on 4 different courses anywhere in Myrtle.

Today, in Lakeland FL. I shot 41-38, the first time I;ve broken 80 in three years. Seven strokes under my age; I was 'in the zone'. It can happen.

What a horrendously crappy way to frame the hypothetical situation! I think most of us understand course and slope ratings - and most of probably also object to being misled with a red herring like "assuming Par 72 each round"...

I think I will skip your exposition of understanding my handicap :)

still must disagree. I'm a 15 and have never shot par much less under. however most cousres I play are mid 120's slope.

Because someone shoots good rounds for four days does not mecessarily make them a sandbagger. If you take into consideration the course or courses on which the person generated the handicap. Courses in Myrtle Beach are generally in better shape and somewhat essier than other courses where weather is not as good year round. Most everyone with a single digit or low handicap is capable of shooting consistant good rounds.

What age is this guy ? A 12 hdcp. senior could have been a 6 or 7 a few years back... I'm 72 yrs. now and was a 4 1/2 index in 1999, that crept up to a 6 by 2005, and now is a 9.4. I've had the occasional "near par" round show up out-of-the-blue. But never four days in a row. I'd want to interview this individual before making such a serious accusation. Any younger man with a 12 index is on the cusp of being a single digit.

the 12.7 is the index. With a course rating of 113 his course handicap is, most likely, 12 or 13--i didn't look it up. Whether the course is "easy" or not, he still has a course handicap of at least 12. that meanse he should shoot, on average, 12 strokes over the scratch rating of 66 for a 78. One of those day should have been in the 70's. this guy is sandbagging. Sure he may have acquired his index on a much more difficult course, but to shoot that low consistently for 4 days is a bit too much to stomach.

Guys & Gals,

I'm amazed at the response to the question! I'm glad to see everyone engaged.

Couple things. This is a hypothetical situation. The example golfer likely isn't going to play four courses with a rating of 66 and a slope of 113. The question was designed to get your perception of how you approach evaluating handicaps as compared to how the USGA evaluates them. 2) If a player recorded those scores on a course that easy, their handicap differential would've exceeded their handicap index on three of four days. 3) We recognize this situation with these slopes and ratings aren't likely to occur. What we were attempting to do is determine how many of you evaluate a handicap based on a player's score as it relates to par, as opposed to using the tools the USGA handicap system does.

Tyler Hahn
Handicap Chairman

A handicap needs to be compared to slope. When I used to play tournaments in WA, we had to record scores into the GHIN system on computer. This required course as well as score information. When you played a tournament your handicap was adjusted based on the slope of the course you were playing. It's hard to tell if the player above is sandbagging or if the problem is with the handicap system in use. I have been a 12 handicap in the past and know it is highly unlikely to shoot that far below par on 4 days with unfamiliar courses and in a tournament. Remember handicap is a percent of ave score diff so you are doing above ave just shooing it.

Yes, he is sandbagging. I am a 10 index and I never shoot 19 under par for 4 rounds. You can throw away your system and use common sense. If you have played golf for 40 years you would understand what I am talking about. This just doesn't happen and especially when your playing four different courses. You will more likely shoot over par on some of the days. You might shoot under par on 1 day. COMEONMAN

Considering all the information provided in this scenario, I believe you can't make a confirmed decision...we don't know what the slope rating is in this hypothetical situation. However, considering all the intangibles of tournament play, this player would have to be "real" hot to win his flight. It could be done but he would have to be in the "zone" for four days of play.

I keep scores for 12 guy for 4 years and only one golfer short two low score in a row and that is from the gold tee and the usga says 68 is par. this golfer has been a 3 to 5 hcp using 100% plus stroke control and 72 as par. total yards 5800 plays the white tee 6400 and is 7 to 8 hcp. so yes that guy sandbagged.

First and foremost a 12 handicap player on a par 72 course is shooting anywhere from 81 to high 80's. So lets give him the benefit of doubt and say his average round per day playing well is 83.Now lets mutiply the 83 by four and we get a total of 332 gross, mius his handicap of 48 for all four days thus giving us a total of 284 net. To be 15 shots better than this in my books is sandbagging. And my reasoning for this having played in this tourney in the past is that there are no couses we played while I was there were definately not as easy as the one fore mentioned in the course description.

You are most definitely wrong. A 12 handicap should almost never be able to go 4 staight rounds under par, never mind in a tournament of this magnitude. I don't care how easy the course was i.e. slope, yardage. Anyone who shoots that far under par all 4 rounds is a sandbagger. No Question!!!!!

I think you all are missing the point a handicap is a percentage of your score not to make it equal or better than par. A twelve should be shooting around a 87 give or take a couple. It has little difference the course that should be adjusted by the slope compared to that course. Too many people think they need a handicap that is high enough to make their score equal or better than par, Not so. So your hypothetical is a sandbagger supreme.

If the handicap for this player is correct as posted
his score should be around 78.6 each day to be correct to his handicap. I don't see those scores in your theory.

I may be mistaken but I think that the player is likely sandbagging.

from my understanding you would add your couse handicap to the course rating to get an target score. In this case that would be (66.6 + 12). this golfer should score around a 79 to 81 to play to his handicap. not 65. the 66.6 rating is for a scratch golfer.

The way I understand it had had daily diffencials of 1.4, 1.4, 1.4 and -1.6 .

to play at his handicap the player should have finished at around 316 or so strokes...

Please correct me if I am missing something.

Several things to keep in mind pertaining to the World Amatuer in Myrtle Beach. Unless a player is from the Myrtle Beach area, He is playing on grass and green conditions he is not used to. He is playing at or near sea level and the ball likely will not go as far as his home area. He is likely playing courses he has not seen before. I'll give a player the benefit of playing a totally outstanding round (luck) one day out of four, but NOT all four days on four different courses as I have seen some do in past events!

It is VERY clear that the data supplied was not sufficient to accuse him or her of cheating / being dishonest. The first thing I was curious about was how close was the next player / group of players. The next question was had they played in the Wold Am previous years and what were their scores? What was their age and was the transition recent to a new age group? What were the scores, were there 2 really good rounds and 2 average rounds? It is real easy to assume the worst about a person. What if it had been you? Would you at least get and give the benefit of a doubt.

Your USGA Handicap is based on a score that you
are capable of shooting on a good day, not your
average score. If this guy is shooting 5 under his
handicap for 4 days in a row, on 4 different courses, he not sand bagging, he " STEALING " from
the " HONEST " golfers.A golfer may shoot under his handicap a round, or maybe 2, but no way is he going to shoot 19 under his handicap for 4 days.

It appears that the author does not understand the USGA handicapping system because the relative ease of the particular course WOULD REDUCE the handicap strokes allowed. A NET score of 19 under for four rounds does, in fact, indicate sandbagging.

Your math may justify the handicap differential but most people in the tournament are playing on strange courses that they have not likely to have played before and they're performing under tournament pressure. When you factor in the physical and mental fatigue of four rounds, it should be more difficult for anyone to play to their handicap,let alone post numbers way below their index.

you cannot play 4 different courses, with 4 different green speeds, grass type, etc and shoot 19 under with your hndcp being a 12, remember an average score for a 12 is 84. Not his "home" course, so everyday would be different playing conditions - fairways, greens, etc, so YES he is bagging it. But I am glad to know I can shoot 19 under for 4 days and not get called upstairs at night time !!!

What was his score in relation to the rest of the field. In my opinion if he was leading by 4 strokes or better at the end, he was sandbagging, because on the average he lead the field by 1 stroke everyday?

If the person has such a great 4 rounds of golf he may have had his handicap set on champ tees and then when at the tournament with his 12 handicap he gets to hit from the mens tee ( much shorter yardage), so invaribly YES he is sand bagging.

I got one that I'm still trying to get from under, last year, rd 4, flt 58, THISTLE moved 3 tee boxes up, so they anounced because of rain .........Hadn't broke 100 all week BUT shoot 90, last day. Posted as tournament (67.3/113)
NOW, USGA reduces me every month, tournament play better than regular play. Some times it hurts!

Its likely the golfer coming from abroad has never seen the 4 courses he is playing and probably hasn't even practiced. That being the case, I would challenge any legitimate 12 handicapper to shoot 19 under par.

I would be excommunicated from my regular guys with this performance. We play for a little cash and side bets, nothing over $15.-$20. We check all
our friends handicaps who want to play with the group. You could choose to not be in the $$ game.
This is discouraged.

OH Yea!! Definely sandbagging. Two years ago when I last played in the Tournament (50 to 59 with a 5 handicap), we played the back tees everyday, and it was hot hot hot! The ball does not go as far there and different courses everyday leaves for a lot of uncertainty. I`ve served on tournament committees as well as handicap committees as well and over four days sooner or later every players true handicap shows up, especially for the top prize.

You indicated a 12 handicap "INDEX"....that makes him a 15 or 16 handicap ....not 12 and he would be shooting an average 82 gross score each day...not realistic at all for a 15 or 16 handicap.

As a 12 handicap at a tough narrow course, I went out and played a Pro Am and shot 73. I was accused of being a sandbagger. For the next 2 weeks I was in a zone and fired 9 rounds, all under 80. It was the best 2 weeks of my golfing life.
We have to trust the USGA system. People cheat.
But we can't change USGA to alleviate ALL of the cheaters and their systems.. I think the system is fine. The cream will come to the top.

Not enough information. The best way to determine if indeed he is sandbagging, to me anyway, is not only what he shoos, but how he shoots it. How many times did he a short shot within a few feet of the cup. How many greens did he hit from say 205 out. Was he, and we all get this from time to time, "zoned in" on a particular day or days. Backspin, course management, scores on the 5 lowest handicap holes for a particular course. All these things should be taken into consideration as well as, and most importantly, the persons behavior during the course of play.

According to the USGA the probability of shooting 5 under par as a 12 handicap in 1 round is 276:1. Let alone shooting an average of 5 under for 4 rounds.

http://www.usga.org/playing/handicaps/understanding_handicap/articles/deanstable.html

Not to mention that after shooting 5 under the first two rounds, the USGA would suggest his handicap be adjusted. Therefore, shooting 5 under for two more rounds would be even more difficult. Also, the probability of shooting the 65 on the 4th rounds has a probability of 1200:1.

I call that a sandbagger no matter what they say.

Neil Mackinnon comments said it all, he's a bagger big time. I'm a 7 handicap, playing 30+ years. I really doubt that I could shoot under par for 4 rounds,esp. in that competition and I've shot 68 1x and a few 69's and 70's, come on give me a break. Jack Holz

I am a 12 handicap. I would find it very difficult to shoot four rounds in a row like that and I play 100 hundred rounds a year. It is possible if his home course was very difficult (and long) and the course played was very easy(and short) but the index should adjust for that. I would question if stroke control was used for his handicap.

Figures don't lie buy liars do figure. Stats again and agin prove that a golfer can shoot as little as 40% of his/her handicap and as high 240% in a given day. That's a given day. One. Not four days in a row!!! On four different courses!! Not w/ a Leprechaun in each pocket!!!

The USGA statistics show that the odds of a player with a handicap from 6-12 shooting a NET score 5 strokes lower than his target score is 276:1. So for that 12-handicapper to do it four times in a row would have a probability of 1 in 276 x 276 x 276 x 276, or about once in 1.6B tries. It's safe to say that player was a sandbagger.

Let me tell you how this game is played. The first two days you are four or five under (-3 & -1 or -2). Wednesday you must have a score to put you in the top five and Thursday you have a great day of nine to eleven under to win the flight.
These top players could beat me by five or more strokes per day if they were not worried about having their score adjusted. I have seen them back off on Wednesday because they would have the best score in their flight and be adjusted on Thursday.
I have played in three tournaments and learned how these players win their flight.
This is why I will never play in this tournament again.

It is not impossible, but highly unlikely that a player would shoot his handicap or under, for 4 rounds. I would say this player is very lucky or may have somehow gotten around using equitable stroke control, because as amatuers we all seem to have our "blow up holes". For a 12 handicap not to have a blown up for 4 rounds is highly unlikely.

This is exactly why I never play in handicap tourneys. I am currently a 1.2 index on a pretty difficult course and generaly shoot in the mid 70's and even low 80's with a round every once in awhile at par or 1 or 2 under. I do play some easier courses and play about the same because I don't know them like my home course so there is a few strokes of a learning curve to consider. Now add in the tourney pressure and I can
easily shoot high 80's to low 90's on a difficult course. Plus handicaps should be ajusted to the course your playing if you're a 12 on your moderately difficult home course then mabye you should only be an 8 on a much easier couse.
With all that said you should only be able to around even par
if you put together 4 solid rounds. 19 under give me a break
if anything more then 1-3 under wins it's sandbagging. This why I only play in scratch tourneys I have a better chance of winning a scratch tourney giving up at least 1.5 stokes to the field then giving a sanbagger 5 or more strokes per round.
I think hadicaps should be thrown out all together, distance is the only thing in the game that should be handicapped and that can be achieved with tee boxes. Why should I give someone 12 strokes because I work my ass off and practice
harder then they do, this is still a competitive sport isn't it.
I was a 13 handicap 2 years ago and have dedicated my time to getting better at this game to be competitive at it, so the better I get, the more strokes I have to give the people that don't work at it to get any better. The handicap system actualy makes it pay to suck at this game. I played the other day with a guy who was a newbie 36 handicap and shot a 101. Wow 7 under for a guy that's been playing a few months. I have been playing for 15 years and -4 is my best round relitive to par or -6 with a 2 handicap at the time.
So in closing, play this game the way it was Intended to be played (Straight up) if you want to beat somebody that is better then you, then practice more and if you still can't beat them then play with people more to your skill level. If you're giving up to much distance use the tee box that makes it as even as possible even if it's the womens or kids box so your hitting similar clubs into the greens and get efficient at chipping and putting. Signed, No strokes for you!

Shooting 4 consecutive rounds substantially under par indicates sandbagging. This is highly unlikely.

All handicap chairs: Please note the following:
If you have a USGA Handicap Index of 11.6, for instance, it translates into a Course Handicap of 14 when you play from the middle tees one day at a course with a Course Rating of 72.1, with a Slope Rating of 135. So a little addition (72.1 + 14) leads you to think that you will consistently shoot around 86. In reality, your score average is normally three more strokes than that, or an 89. The USGA Handicap Research Team has determined that your best score in 20 is normally only two strokes better than your Course Handicap, or an 84; the probability of your recording an 83 twice in 20 rounds is only one in 50. http://www.usga.org/handicapping/articles_resources/How-Well-Should-You-Play-/ THIS GUY IS A SANDBAGGER!

I was handicap chair for several years at one of the clubs I belonged to. A 12 handicap index on a course that has a slope of 113 means the player should shoot an average of 84 for the ten best rounds as I am sure the World Am. Handicap Chair knows. But the fact that only the best 10 of 20 rounds is used to calculate the index whose average 10 best Hcp. indexes is multiplied by 0.96 for the sake of low handicap golfers I would guess the average score on his or her home course would be around 86 - 87. If the course rating is 66 and not 72 with a slope of 113, it means the average score for 20 rounds should be 86 or 87 - 6 for the course rating of 66 or 80 to 81. 81 - 12 would mean the average score of the individual for the slope 113 course with 66 course par rating would be around 69 or 12 under for the four rounds. NOW THE MOST IMPORTANT INFORMATION NEVER MENTIONED BY THE WORLD AM OR ANYONE USUALLYAND AS SHOWN ABOVE FROM THE USGA STATS THAT ON THE AVERAGE GOLFERS ONLY SCORE TWICE TWO UNDER ONCE IN 50 ROUNDS.

The amatuer tournaments I play in, also A flight. We play the back tees and even if it's an easy course the slope/rating is taking into acount. I can see maybe one day getting hot and shooting 70-72. 4 rounds in the 60's net is not a 12 handicap, he should have played four different courses. Some or all he may have never played. In tournament format, this guy should be at highest a 5-6 handicap. I'm a 12 now and would bet his handicap is as real as when I was scratch to a 2 handicap and shot 69-75 most days, but on new and different courses during tournament play it is the short putts and posting a score. He should and would have known he was playing above and beyond what one would call possible. The pressure would have brought down a 12 handicap and at least two days he would have shot his handicap and more. Most tournaments that last four days adjust or disqualify this type of a poor representative of the game. I've got a friendly wager for anyone that wants to see. Lets get 2 12 handicapers, me and this guy. We will go play four differnt courses and the truth will be unveiled. I'll give my clubs to make a wish if he can play like that and is a 12. Or just come play the A flight in the EGolf amatuer. They have tours all over the country almost always the A Flight plays the back tees and the truth will prove he should be in the Championship Flight. My brother is a 4.6 handicap and he plays in most of these tournaments and shoots in the 70-90's. Rear tees and get on some undulating greens and you can shoot a high score. That was gross and not net, but even net he may on occasion be in the 60's. But not four days, the Championship is at Hilton Head and he had maybe high 70's and 89. None would net in 60's. Barefoot Dye Course not back tee 6634 Rating 72 and slope 132, World Tour MB Open-Champ rating 70.6, slope 126, Champ-Int'l rating 71 slope 129, Int'l-Open 70.2 slope 129. Grande Dunes rating 72.3 slope 131(this is not rear, not second but third tee. Barefoot Love 6542 rating 71.7 slope 131, Barefoot Norman 6487 rating 71.1 slope 128. Long Bay 6593 rating 72.1 slope 131. Barefoot Fazio 6350 70.6 slope 133, Eastport par 70 5545 rating 66.2 slope 116, even the B flight play rear to only 6202 69.1/121. Crown Park 6004 rating 69.3/119. Dunes Club 6565 rating 72.6 slope 138, Blackmoor 6217 rating 69.3/118. Arrowhead (Lakes 3119 r 69.3/126), (Waterway 3060 r 69.4/slope 125(Cypress 3123 rating 69.1/124. The Witch 6259 r68.3/121. Surf Club 6360 r 70.7 s 125. Former Diamond Back 6390 r71.4/129. TPC MB 6600 r 72.2/136. Arcadian Shores 6446 r 71.5/s132. Eagles Nest 6417 r 69.9/120. River Hills 6401 r69.9/s131. Myrtlewood Pinehills 6112 r 69.8/125. That is some of the beach courses & I'm sure some were played. Here are a few other Flag Tree 6183 r 70/120, Pineland CC 6293 r 69.3/121, The Walker Course 6560 r70.9/129, Legacy @ Alaqua Lakes 6392 r70.8/125 (third set of tees) Apple Valley 6297 r 70.9/131, Bald Mountain 5923 r 69.2/120. TPC Heron Bay 6781 r73/124, Mid Rivers 6255 r 68.7/121, Honey Creek 5792 r 67.9/s114, Las Vegas National 6418 r 70.2/121, Torrey Pines North 6326 r 70/119, Torrey South 3 set of tees 6885 r 74.3/136. Only one has a rating of 66.2/116 playing 5545yds par 70. All other are at least 69+ratingslope120+ and that is from the up tee except on the three that were moved up to third tee. No way, I've looked at my scores/fairways hit/greens hit/putts/sand saves/scrambling and adjusted net score based on handicap at the time and most were when I was a 6. Most adjusted scores were around par where they should be. You also don't just take 12 shots off, you would get strokes on the 12 toughest handicap holes. If all 4 courses were rated and slope as said. They must have played Cane Patch, and putt putt on two days. or were playing senior tees as I've played about all courses at the beach and they are don't have ratings and slopes that low for. Eastport (renamed) is only one and it is 5545yds and par 70. What courses played and what tees. Sure it wasn't the ladies tees, oh check that The Surf Club rating from the womens tee is 68.1/109 at 5047yds. Traces the old 18 in Florence is one of the easiest tracks the third up tees play to 5805 1st 9 rating 67.8/109 2nd 9 rating 68.4/111. I play the 6534 tees rating 71.2/121 and 71.3/121. When i had a 1.5 hadicap I had a 2 over and a 2 under. As a 6 I had 77 and 76. So to be short no way a 12, no way playing regular tees and finding rating/slope as such on 99.9% of beach courses.

I can understand having a very good round or two. We have shot even par in the past yr or two,But to maintain that level for 4 rounds would be rare. 10 under OK much more than that????

should not be able to because you guys would be adjusting his handicap during the four days of play.

I agree with one of the comments,no matter how you look at it, you need to look at how the others played. If and I do mean if, because you stated Assuming that the course is 72 and all that, you not stating what the other players score was, so therefore, there is not enough information. So you cannot say that the person is sandbagging Hypothetically speaking of course.

Interesting hypothetical situation but the problem is regardless of it being hypothetical if anyone shot 19 under his handicap over four days it should be highly suspect. Sure it's a possibility so it should be reviewed and ALL the facts looked at before a determination is made but the first reaction of anyone looking at those numbers is sandbagger.

Not enough info for me to call someone a sandbagger unless I played all 4 rounds with the player.

Your index will equalize the handicap by course/slope ratings.

My World Am experience has been one of elation(winning my flight @ -9) and finishing second @ -8) the other 7 tries way down the list, but fun.

A TRUE 12.0 index would have a problem keeping it together for four rounds on different courses, but in golf anything is possible.

With the way the handicap is computed by the World Am, this would only happen once. The player would be called to room #207. Next year his tournamenr scores would adjust his index down regardless of what he sends in. I don't remember any flight being -19 since 2002!!

Golf is a game of honor and it is unfortunate some players feel the need to play by their own set of rules.

The Handicap Committee has a thankless job.

This year @ 66 my index is 10.0 and I won't be
-19 for sure. If it is I should be given a drug test, because it won't be due to my golf gsme.
See'ya'all in August.

Give me a 12 Handicap that can shoot 19 under on a course with any rating and I will give him $1000. :) The guy who I end up paying will be a sandbagger!

I have another thought. What if your 13.7 index person plays to that index on his home course which has a slope rating of 132. Would you call himj a sandbagger then if he shoots well on a course rated in the 120s? I would expect that person to play well in that case.

Just thought I would throw that into the mix

Many of these comments are surprising. You'd think that folks that play regularly would be informed about the handicap system, not to mention the rules. I can't count the guys I play with in tournaments who don't have a clue about either. I even had to explain ESQ to a club's head pro the other day. It doesn't give you much faith in the system. HOWEVER, the WorldAm seems to have always done a great job in dealing with the handicaps. My hat is off to them.

handicaps are based of courses you play often and most cases your home course you know very well. To golf your handicap or better 4 rounds under tournament conditions on courses you don't play is simply IMPOSABLE and EVERY true handicap player knows this.

Yes, he is a sandbagging. The handicap system takes only the top 10 scores out of the last 20 scores. This means you must play 2 to 3 strokes better than your average score. So 19 under is actually 27 to 31 under compared to his average score.I feel that almost all players cannot be 5 under on Wednesday and 10 under on Thursday. He only was 4 under the first two days to keep under the radar gun.
Please take a look at flight winners and their Wednesday and Thursday scores. I feel that a two day cap needs to be placed on under par scores to keep the tournament fair to those players who are not sandbagging.

I just joined a new C.C. At my old course I was a strong 13 hcp.I shot in the low to mid 80's. I played my new club 6 times before joining and never broke 90. Went back to my old course and shot 81. Course slope rating makes a big difference. The new course has mostly dog legs you can only see five greens from the tee four of them are par threes the fiftth is a par five up hill. Some of the dog legs I can;t drive past to get a clear second shot at the greens. I'm sure my handicap will go up, so it should be adjusted down when I go to play at my old course. Thit;s what the GHIN system is for.

AFter thinking about this some more I realized that there are ways that his handicap could be accurate. One he only plays early in the morning when course conditions are more difficult or two, he established that handicap without using all his clubs. e.g. he only used irons.

Both conditions would yield a "fictitious" though "fair" handicap.

The R&A do not use slope ratings in hcap adjustment, so in Scotland where I play he would be cut 4 days on the trot to an 8 hcp. Most unlikely that he would get cut every day if he was playing off 12. - Then he might spend the next year going backwards.....especially if he played on more difficult courses. If the standard scratch for the day was more he would be cut more and if less he would be cut less. The SS reflects the efforts of the field on the day.
Both courses at my club are slope rated, but in my view this is also not a true reflection of how hard or easy they can play during the course of a year, the green keepers masochism for some pin positions can also make a difference!
it really is a case of "different strokes for different folks" between the USGA and R&A members.

The issue of understanding handicaps requires understanding how they are calculated. First and foremost is to grasp that the INDEX is a standardized number that takes into account how hard the courses are you usually play. All scores (differentals) in essence incorporate adjustments for the difficulty and the tees played for each round. Simply as an example: IF golfer A, shoots 80 everytime he plays - on a 135 slope course from the back tees his INDEX will probably be around 5 or 6. If golfer B, shoots 80 everytime he plays - on a course with a slope of 115 from the forward tees his index will probably be a 10 -11. And that is very reasonable. Obviously golfer A is the better golfer if he can play a hard course from the back tees and shoot the same score as golfer B playing on an easy couse from the up tees. The critical issue is to assure are the indexes are adjusted back again to get the course handicap on any given day of play if golfers A and B ever have to play against each other.

The second handicap issue that many people misunderstand is that they think their hcp is what they typically shoot - It's not. Your index is your 25th percentile score (adjusted for difficulty and tees). I.E. the average of your best 10 of 20 scores. What you typically shoot is the 50th percentile, the number you get if you averaged all 20 differentials. So mathematically you will typically only shoot your hcp 1 out of 4 rounds. The only exception to this is if you are in a consistent period of improving your game.

To the sandbagging question. As others have said - yes, he is a sandbagger. The liklihood of even shooting your hcp 4 times in a row is very low (even on one's home course). The liklihood of shooting almost 5 strokes better is off the chart impossible for a 12 index player. More likely for a 36 index player, but still very unlikely.

One last point. Handicaps are only as honest as the people that use them. Every golfer knows people at their club that distort their hcps in many different ways. It should not be surprising that when playing in a 100 person tourney, there will always be someone playing with a distorted hcp. That's life.

After reading these comments and leaving this message along with the one about the GPS question,it appears there is much more to the World Am than just "FUN." This will be my first attempt in the (60-69) group. I have played courses in Myrtle Beach before and I agree it is nothing like home in Pa. It ranged from the pine needles , sand on the fairways, greens(Bermuda and rough) and the various vagaries that come with Southern courses. Now, add tournament pressure( unless this will be just for FUN )and you have a whole new ballgame along with a handicapping system.
Playing four different courses and conditions ranging from heat to thundershowers and tight fairways , it seems that playing four great rounds may be a quirk of luck and skill . A clear example is what Justin Rose just did at the Travelers ( 65 one day-75 on the last day)of how the game can change, especially on the greens and confidence. The course will be shortened and I have yet to play from our senior tees. That will be different using an array of different clubs. Anybody that can wedge most of the day please send me some lessons . I can't use that wedge well but use a 7 iron ( punch and run) for most of my short shots . Now try that over water and bunkers? AS you can see there are so many sub sets of the sandbagging question . I belong to the theory that you "shoot what you shoot because that is what you shoot. "
I'm not into handicap index ,etc. as the World Am has done an admirable job , and that is after reading these comments. Anytime handicap is concerned there will be "friendly" controversy. I'll be able to see from my own how this tournament plays out first hand for my first try . I'll reserve those thoughts when all is said and done...oh,yes, the guy was a sandbagger !

Any 12 -15 can play for a short time in the mid to high 70's and low 80's. They are really single diget players who can not putt consistantly. When they putt in "the zone" and avoid penalties, they are dangerous not sandbaggers.

A 12-15 handicap can at any time, however for a short time, shoot those scores. He is simply a single diget player who can not putt consistantly. He probably hits many greens but often 3 putts. He is often close to greens or is in bunkers and doesn't get it up and down. When he is in "the zone" and without penalties, he definately can score those numbers. May even play better under wahc tournament conditions.Not a sandbagger!

After reading your comments I am sorry to say that though your math works the reality is far from accurate. I have been a 12/13 handicap for years. I can play tough courses or easy ones I have been in grooves or the zone, etc. I got to the lowest handicap I ever had last summer when I was able to play an average of 4 days a week for a month and a half, I got to an 8.7 after finally recording scores of 79 and 77 (which came because of only 26 putts)is the lowest 18 hole score I have ever had in 40 years of golfing. since then my handicap has gone back up to 11.9 since I haven't been able to play as much, so even on a short, flat course it still takes at least 2 shots to reach a par 4 and I don't hit alot of greens in regulation, now according to my friends I play with (average handicaps from 4 to 17) I am very good around the greens and an excellent putter. so even on an easy course with such a rating 66/110 in which of course my course handicap would be dropped to a 10/11 I would probably have a hard time shooting a 79 in a tournament which would be a net 68 for 1 day let alone for 4 days. I would indeed have to question this examples handicap. of course when I come to Myrtle I hope to play my best and let the chips fall where they may.

Any 12-15 handicapper can at any time, albiet a short time, be able to shoot those kind of numbers. They are really single diget players who can not putt consistantly. They are on, usually far away, as many greens or close but 3 putt or do not get it up and in for par. They take a dumb penalty and can't recover. The week they putt, perhaps in a tournament, they are perceived as sandbaggers. These players are dangerous but not "baggers".

I completely understand where the World Am is coming from on this. Because I am in the middle of a hot stretch where I am under my handicap for three consecutive rounds. On Friday and Saturday I played a par 72 course with rating 69.0/ slope 122. I am a 13.9 index, so my course handicap was 15. I shot 82 and 86 (net 67 and 71; -5 & -1 to par). Yesterday I shot on a course with par 71 that is rating 68.9/ slope 120. Once again course handicap was 15. I shot an 80, which is net 65, 6 under. That is -12 total over the three rounds.

My lowest index ever was late last year at 11.8. Prior to last year my lowest index ever was in the 14 range. I guess it could be presumed that I have sandbagged this year to get back to 13.9, but the fact is I have an early season (I live in the northeast) rise in my index every year as I come out of the winter and lack of play.

It is true, it is rare that I can have three in a row like this. But the thing is -- it is POSSIBLE -- because I am now doing it! With us mid to higher handicap golfers it can be one thing we read on golf.com or one lesson we took that made something click. For me I have just found a hint that has me making better contact with my mid/long irons so I'm suddenly hitting more greens.

Hopefully, the World Am staff adjusts the handicaps of all of last years' 1st through 5th places in each flight to their scores last year and not the handicap that they turn in.....

Hopefully the WA will review carefully the top five finishers in each flight and truly use their handicap from last years' tournament and not accept the one turned in.....